***VOTE*** Defensive Line/Sacks

[majesty95]

Ok, Warren7 and I have been debating this so I decided to put it up to a vote before completely changing the rule.

Would you rather adjust the sliders which will "hopefully" make it much tougher to user pressure the QB with the possibilility of severely limiting the ability of non-user controlled players to rush the QB or...

would you rather leave the sliders where they are so that CPU controlled players on user teams can get a similar rush to where they are now and just ban users from controlling DL or LBs lined up on the line?

The reason that I initially went with the ban on usering the DL and LBs lined up on the line is that, as a whole, sacks are not unrealistic. It is just some of the really good pass rushers that have a significant advantage with the new user skills for pass rushing. From my experience, increasing the pass block sliders will just neuter the normal sack guys at the expense of bringing the unrealistically high sack guys back down to earth. Then guys who don't user the DL or get a lot of pressure as is will then have to blitz almost every play or just play without pressure. That didn't seem like the best "sim" option.

On the other hand, making guys play as MLBs or safeties (or OLBs off the line of scrimmage) would force guys to use more skill and rely less on a cheesy element added by EA. They could still get a decent pass rush from their CPU controlled linemen and improve as players by forcing themselves to use LBs or safeties.

So, I'll leave it up to you. Are you more OK with potentially lowering sack numbers and QB pressure as a whole to hopefully offset the user sack numbers? or would you rather just let the CPU controlled players handle the pass rush and force users to play with guys in space and see who has the better skill in those areas?

 

[majesty95]

whoa, Konvict27, Xxclaywilliamxx, sifukeatis, Paytonno1son, BigTexas18, king_of_kings, woodsmall12, pack1797, BlackPaw, Mark, beeswarm, OGdp956, rkjones217, DarkParadox21, nefariousducky, Gold Rush!, Warren7, Uweakmestrong, blewberries, NightHawkTH32, SeanieMack, DEEStud

 

[Warren7]

And for the other side, I want to find a fair and Sim level to set pass blocking. If done right no records should be getting broken and nobody should be unrealisticly struggling to get pressure. I'm willing to spend time with you guys who know more of nfl them my Canadian ass testing sliders to find the happy medium for pass blocking. Taking the use of DE and DT out of the 4-3 scheme and OLB as well for the 3-4 scheme doesn't seem sim to me (Also seems to benefit 4-3 systems). Limitting you to start the play off with only half your players. Yes it's a solution but I'm not convinced its the best or most Sim. Cheers all yall

 

[majesty95]

You're not starting the play with half your players lol, u just wouldnt be allowed to control your D-line just like you can't control you O-line. And only bc it's unrealistically easy for high skill guys to get sacks.

I know you hope for this perfect medium but I just don't think it exists. There is only one slider and it affects ALL pass blocking. There is no way to just turn it down so the elite guys who could get 30 sacks dont and keep the guys who are getting normal sacks where they are. We are going to have to reduce the amount of sacks by normal players to get the excessively high players in line. If everyone feels that is a better option, so be it.

But i would recommend playing several games on All-Madden or even with pass blocking jacked way up to see what you think. Its really tough to get a pass rush on All-Madden. Personally, I'd rather learn to play as a LB or S as opposed to rarely getting pressure from a 4 - man rush

 

[beeswarm]

I kinda like it the way it is now, I control the safeties / lb's. By doing this I have a higher advantage of getting interceptions than some one who uses the DL. And some one who uses a DL has a higher advantage at getting sacks than I do. Each position has their own strengths. I don't think controlling DL should be revoked from users. However, the incredibly high amount of sacks by multiple guys would suggest the sliders should be raised to make it more realistic.

 

[Konvict27]

Just make a rule that you have to mix up..who you are using..example on first and second down no D line using..but on obvious passing downs like second and long...not fair to not let a guy that's good at pass rush not use D line at all...on third down you should get to rush the passer....

 

[beeswarm]

Or a rule like you can only control a DL for one half...

 

[Mark]

Can you post the stats of sacks? Not sure what to think yet, I like using the d-line to rush the passer.

 

[BlackPaw]

I choose to opt out of voting. The slider adjustment affects the game too much. The ban would be a better option but I'm not in complete agreement with that either. I like Konvicts' suggestion. Strict rotation should be an option or passing downs. I'll adjust either way, but def no slider adjustment. Because the CPU lineman will be even better if they are good. So longer time to pass and longer time for cbs to cover.

 

[woodsmall12]

if these are the parameters we have to work with then my thoughts are ...
Do not tweek the sliders bcz elite players should perform in the manner they were meant to perform when the game was set up ... if they break records in that fashion, then so be it but you have to control a player that is not on the LOS ... we should not see average players breaking records when it comes to sacks ... if someone does it, then it should be one of the more dominant pass rushers ... now you coud argue that eventually an average Joe could if his coach built him up that way but I believe the D Line will perform darn near close to their attributes based on the current sliders

I am open to the rotation or limited user play that was mentioned above but man that will be hard to track and monitor and quite honestly we shouldn't be babysitting ... I really would prefer to go that route though because I play a DE or DT almost religiously ... with that being said. I think its an "All or Nothing" approach and I still think that playing as a LB or CB or Safeyt is a way to go to be fair

 

[Paytonno1son]

I'll opt out of voting as well.

We are trying to make a game "more sim", when the problem is the culture. If it seems like you are abusing something by getting multiple big plays, etc, just learn how to stop, mix it up, etc. USER picks, catches, sacks, etc. Pretty soon the game will be just press X to hike and let the CPU handle the rest. Just because some people can't handle losing and/or exploiting flaws in the game for padded stats.

 

[majesty95]

Mark You can see them here http://daddyleagues.com/px1/stats/player

Come on, opting out of voting isn't a solution. Lol. Its a blend vote. Pick one if u had to. We can still try to find a balance if u are not 100% one way or the other.

I agree with wanting the player's attributes to matter and I don't want to neuter them to restrict guys who are getting carried away with sacks. I understand guys who play as the D-line (that's all I play as lol) but I don't see another option.

We can't (and shouldn't have to) monitor everything the user does. Guys should be able to not abuse this just like you don't abuse counters or corner routes or strong powers. Unfortunately, this is a little more difficult than saying hey you ran a counter or corner a couple times too many. How to do police guys that exclusively play as the d-line and have got really good at getting elite linemen sacks?

I've thought about limiting how often you can play as one of the linemen. However, limiting them to just 3rd down now gives them the go ahead to use this cheesy tactic on 3rd down. Its not 100% but I've watched a lot of games and sometimes these guys just get through almost like a nano blitz. Its ridiculous. Is it really fair for the opposing user to know they have to face that every 3rd down?

It's a difficult issue to rectify. I do think it's partly culture and some of these guys that are abusing it could learn to not abuse it and go to it every time they need a sack. That would help tremendously. But I'm not sure it's the easy when u play as a d-lineman every down...

 

[Warren7]

Regardless it favours teams running a 4-3 because only D line is on the LOS. If someone chooses to use the 3-4 which lines up both OLB on the line you have even less players to user control unless you back them up manually which isn't sim either cause ya might as well play 4-3. Then comes my fear. Trying to find my player they hut the ball and I become a dlineman. If he runs an option I'm forced to take the running back cause if I sack the QB I'm breaking the rules and will get punished. Its not that I wanted to for sure change the sliders but not even trying different sliders to see results and just falling back on the easy route to just make a rule and call it good doesn't work for me. If we put time in and can't find a good slider set up sure other solutions will be needed. But just assuming slider changes dont work cause "on the old maddens it didn't" is not legit. I wanted time work with you guys on test games to see what we can do to rectify this without banning 5 out of 11 d players from the start of the play. I'm not posative the sliders will work but if it does its easily the best choice.

 

[BlackPaw]

I voted. I see a lot of the same opinions on not using dline.

Sliders are not the option, average players become good.

I really hope we find common ground.

 

[majesty95]

Warren7 A 3-4 is 3 defensive linemen and 4 line "backers". By definition, the 4 LBs don't line up on the line. Yes, some formations have 5 guys on the line but so does 4-3. 4-3 Under and over sets put a LB on the line giving them 5 guys on the line. So, it would affect both defenses evenly.

I know you think sliders will solve this but let me ask you this. You're an NHL guy right? Let's say you've been playing NHL for 25 years. You've done anything and everything with the game through the years. There's an issue with only good players scoring and regular players rarely scoring. Someone suggests lowering the sliders to make it easier to score. You've adjusted slider sets for years playing the game and know that to get the regular players scoring more, it will be unbelievably easy for guys like Crosby and Ovechkin to score giving those teams an advantage. Would you still adjust the sliders or even attempt it?

This is the same engine as last year. For the most part, sliders in this game have worked the same for the past 5 or 6 years. We will see how the vote pans out but I think that's why you are seeing guys voting against sliders. We've been there and done that and don't like what it does to the game. Doesn't mean we have to completely ban usering linemen but it does mean we have to explore other alternatives to get this in lime with realism.

 

[majesty95]

Again, the ideal solution is to get guys not to abuse it and get 7-8 sacks a game. But how do we do that?

 

[pack1797]

I have to draw some distinction between user picks and user sacks. Let's say Beeswarm is Usering his safety pre snap and throughout the play, as he often does. He drops back in coverage, his opponent throws in his area, and he makes the play. I don't think this is exploiting, mainly because the opponent chose to throw at him.
User sacks in Madden 15 are basically a button pressing mini game. Top level d linemen, when user controlled, can be damn near unstoppable with this mechanic. The opponent has no answer for this. Hard to complete a three step drop with a d lineman hanging off you because your opponents timing on the mini game was perfect. That makes it an exploit in my eyes.
Woods is right. We have plenty to keep up with without throwing more rules out there to have to babysit and make sure they're being followed. A lot of thithis comes down to us, as owners, taking some of the responsibility and policing ourselves. Sliders are gonna fix one problem, and probably create new ones. There is no perfect set up in a game like this.
At this point, the numbers don't lie. Sack numbers are astronomical across the board. If the only way to stop an overpowering game mechanic is to ban line use, that's a fault in the game, but we still have to deal with it to play realistic football. Just my two cents.

 

[Warren7]

Warren7 A 3-4 is 3 defensive linemen and 4 line "backers". By definition, the 4 LBs don't line up on the line. Yes, some formations have 5 guys on the line but so does 4-3. 4-3 Under and over sets put a LB on the line giving them 5 guys on the line. So, it would affect both defenses evenly.

I know you think sliders will solve this but let me ask you this. You're an NHL guy right? Let's say you've been playing NHL for 25 years. You've done anything and everything with the game through the years. There's an issue with only good players scoring and regular players rarely scoring. Someone suggests lowering the sliders to make it easier to score. You've adjusted slider sets for years playing the game and know that to get the regular players scoring more, it will be unbelievably easy for guys like Crosby and Ovechkin to score giving those teams an advantage. Would you still adjust the sliders or even attempt it?

This is the same engine as last year. For the most part, sliders in this game have worked the same for the past 5 or 6 years. We will see how the vote pans out but I think that's why you are seeing guys voting against sliders. We've been there and done that and don't like what it does to the game. Doesn't mean we have to completely ban usering linemen but it does mean we have to explore other alternatives to get this in lime with realism.

Heck yes I'd ajust the sliders still cause its a next gen system. Anything I did on ps3 would be irrelevant. To me it's giving up before you even try. Seems like the easy way out to just make a new ruleand call it good without researchin the better altenative.

 

[BlackPaw]

No decision has been made though. Just discussion, which I'm thankful for because it certainly could have been changed without it.

I do agree that it's a matter of self policing throughout. Def don't wanna baby sit either but regulation is needed. I even may be considered to be exploiting the dline, but I'm still open to improving the league and it's sim nature.

 

[majesty95]

Heck yes I'd ajust the sliders still cause its a next gen system. Anything I did on ps3 would be irrelevant. To me it's giving up before you even try. Seems like the easy way out to just make a new ruleand call it good without researchin the better altenative.

This is what you don't understand and I don't know why you are so hesitant to accept. This is the EXACT same engine that was used last year. The sliders last year functioned almost EXACTLY like the sliders from the previous 5 or 6 years on PS3. They have been the same slider issues since it migrated from PS2. Nothing has changed. Many of us have played this game since it was on Sega Genesis. You, admittedly, have only played it for 4 years. Wouldn't it be safe to say that those of us that have 25 years of experience would have a better understanding of how these things work in game than someone who is relatively new to the game?

Not to mention, you keep missing the real issues. Roughly 10% of the players are getting an inordinately high number of sacks. 90% of players are getting a reasonable number of sacks. But, adjusting sliders (pass blocking is the only slider which would affect this) affects 100% of the players. So, we would be hampering 90% of the players to try and bring 10% of the players back down to normalcy. That, in turn, will give only the guys who user very good d-linemen realistic sacks while hampering the other 90% that are move average or CPU controlled. How is that a fair and equitable solution? You keep saying "adjust sliders" but you don't seem to fully understand how the sliders work. One slider controls 100% of this area but only 10% of the players are affected. I don't see how neutering 90% to fix 10% is a solid fix...